Forum > Gallery & Work In Progress > Gallery > F150 render help?

Topic - F150 render help?

Jeff Rutan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

J.O.Rust, Thanks! That means a lot to me coming from a master like you!

Hanky, Thank you so much for taking the time to really study my project here- I really appreciate this kind of critique! Praise is nice encouragement, but these kinds of comments really motivate me to do better, and that is the main reason I post (to learn and help others learn, to be encouraged and inspired and to encourage and inspire others).

This project represents a lot of firsts for me (first sub-d project, first GI lighting, first HDR, first UV map, first AO, first 3D vehicle, first significant work in LightWave, and first anything in modo). Although I did product design work using solid splines in Carrara for 3 years before, I just started learning LightWave and polygonal modeling this past December. This is by far the most complex 3D model and the most realistic renders I have ever done.

I will work on improving this project using most of your suggestions, but not all of them since I want to wrap this one up and start my very first modo modeling project.

I don't know what the windshield reflections should look like since I really don't understand the HDRI backdrop (in general) very well yet. This one is a probe image that maybe is not that great. I chose it because the scene looks similar to my neighborhood and areas around here in San Diego. What I really want is for my wife to make an HDRI in our local Balboa Park, but we have to do some more research on how to do that. Anyway, I did not get the strange glass distortions with normal light, so I will have to experiment to find out what it should look like and then to improve either the geometry or the HDRI or both.

I did not know about how to use displacements, so I will study that to improve the labeling on the tires. I may try to add more labeling, but not sure it will be worth a lot of time to generate these masks (took me a while to make the Michelin mask from a small color image on their website).

My tires were originally more sharp and detailed, but the number of polygons was so high that it totally killed the LightWave modeling performance (unusable with sub-d on). So I drastically reduced the geometry until it could work OK. It did get a bit soft looking, but I decided it was good enough since I didn't intend to do such close-ups. Maybe I should go back and sharpen up some of the edges. I have not learned how to use weight maps yet, so maybe this will be an opportunity for that.

I will work on getting the surface of the tires and other materials better. I had them (and other dark materials) kind of light since modeling in LightWave is hard with such dark surfaces (no Gooch Tone Shader). I have been hesitant to go too dark, but I need to work on that. Note that I am still committed to doing all of the modeling for this project in LightWave. My next project will be all modo. I only used modo for surfacing and rendering because LightWave 8.5 render is way too slow and I am not ready to buy FPrime yet.

You are right about the headlight surfaces. I will work on balancing the HDR lighting, but I actually wanted the top to look a bit blown out. I really like light blue stage, so maybe I will find an HDR with more blues.

There is no texture on the license plate at this time. I will experiment with that. These California plates have a metal reflective white background so they amplify light without much reflection or shadows.

Although it would be cool to have more detail behind the grill and underneath and inside the wheel wells, I just don't want to take all that extra time on this project. The bottom is all flat black with no axles, and behind the grill is just a flat black liner. It would also be cool to add the necessary details to have the doors and hood and tailgate open, but I have to end this project sometime! ;-)

I will put a texture on the bed liner after I finish detailing the interior and before doing the final rear-end renders.

Thanks for all that work writing this critique!

-Jeff

Looking again at my reference photos and my real truck some more, the headlights are not really transparent like newer cars:

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

Message edited by Jeff Rutan on 6/11/2006 - 8:34 PM

You've done a wonderful job Jeff, congrats!
Minor comments: Ford logo needs to be sharper (try turning off AA in the image setting. Head lights look like they have too much diffuse and not enough trasparancy/reflection.
Great stuff, keep it up!

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

Thanks Rockmed for the tip about image AA! That helped for the Ford Logo and my other image maps too! I worked really hard on trying to get the headlights to look more like the real ones (above). Hopefully they are getting close enough since I really want to move on now.

An update: bump map and sharper image on license plate, cleaner and sharper Ford logo, more accurate headlights, sharper tires and Michelin logos, lighter background, a touch lighter in general, and more deliberate glare on the windshield so it looks more like there is glass there.

Plus a green version (I delete a hideous dark one I posted earlier after I realized how bad it was). This version is still not great, but I wanted to do this in honor of my friend at work who has a green F-150 that looks a little like this.

I tried some other HDR images and got some better results in terms of color and less weird distortions, but none in the collection that came with modo 201 are as dramatic and pleasing to me as this one. I will keep looking online to find a better one.

I also tried using displacement instead of bump for the Michelin logos, but ended up going back to a stronger bump for this view. The displacement does look better for close-ups, but not so good at this distance. Also, the displacement added a large amount of render time and memory usage. I set it up so I can switch back and forth easily for different views.

-Jeff

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

San Antonio, TX
1037 posts

Wow. Insane level of detail. Congrats! And great updated render. I can tell you put a lot of effort into this project and it shows. Really well done!

I *really* hate to say it, but the headlights still look a little foggy. Is it possible to make them more transparent?

Also, it's a little hard to see but I think you are missing the chrome trim that sits on top of the trim around your wheel wells.

Keep going!

Paul

East Gunswick
874 posts

Amazing job, but the tires are still a little funky. I would tone down the puffiness along the sides, except for around where the tire touches the ground - increase the bulging there and make it a little sharper.

6/13/2006 - 5:37 PM

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cszetela

Livonia, Michigan - USA
1603 posts

Beautiful model and render.
You are a few tweaks away from a final polished render.

6/13/2006 - 8:14 PM

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Jeff Rutan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

P. Ham: You guys are not going to let me off the hook here at all huh??? ;-)

The actual headlights are not perfectly transparent. They have a milky white cast to them. However, I agree that mine are still too opaque. When I try making them more transparent, they look too dark due to the environmental reflections inside. I tried turning the light bulb on a bit, but that blew it out too much. I will keep at it and find a way to make them more realistic looking.

The molding around the wheel wells is all gray plastic (no chrome). One of the reference photos above does have a bright specular appearance due to the angle with the sun and a bit of metallic in the plastic, but there is no metal there. I don't think I forgot any significant piece on this truck. I have over 250 reference photos and I have studied every detail carefully. Anything left out is deliberate at this point (or incomplete in the case of the interior dash area).

BigRed: I am not really seeing a problem with the sidewall bulges in the tires. I did measure the real ones to model this, and I carefully fattened the bulge at the ground where I flattened the part that touches the ground. However, I will play with tuning this aspect further.

cszetela: Thanks! Your car is coming along very clean too! I really want to get this thing finished! 3.5 months on it so far, and I am anxious to start something new and learn how to model in modo.

-Jeff

Here is a first draft of the rear quarter view render. It needs a lot of tweaking (especially in the taillights and bed light). The trailer hitch part of the bumper is a bit too big. The interior dash is still unfinished (soft with no details). I don't understand what the side mirror is doing (why it looks monochrome when it is 100% reflective). I had to use a simpler HDR image because the other one caused terrible distortions to appear in the windows that are definitely not in the model geometry. I guess that HDR image (a light probe) is just not going to work for this project. I need a quality spherical projection image that will work for a turntable so the lighting and reflections will look good at any angle as the model rotates. I will have to search online for better HDR images. Anyone know great places to find these?

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

Livonia, Michigan - USA
1603 posts

Jeff:
The rear shot looks good.
Correction: the optics glass used in your older F-150 should be clear, not milky. It only becomes that way with age and exposure to the elements. The optics on the new F-150s are quite different.

6/14/2006 - 9:12 AM

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Jeff Rutan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

Cszetela: Thanks for the help! I know newer models use much more clear glass for headlights. The whole automotive industry has recently made headlight and taillight design a very significant and innovative part of overall vehicle style. I think this is great as the headlights are like a person's eyes- the windows to the soul. The headlights seem to be the hardest part to get right in 3D so that it looks real.

However, this model is not a newer or generic F-150, it is my 1997 F-150 Lariat. I took some artistic license on only a few details, including making it look just a bit newer in terms of finish, but my goal is still to make it look like my truck.

I will continue to improve the lenses and prisms and reflectors until it looks more real and a bit newer than mine in real life. However, I am not going to make them look like the glass in the newer models.

-Jeff

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

Message edited by Jeff Rutan on 6/14/2006 - 9:43 AM

Livonia, Michigan - USA
1603 posts

Jeff, I wasn't suggesting you to make it look like a newer model headlight. A 1997 is 9 years old and over time those lenses appear a bit milky and opaque. Just make them look like they were when they were new - clearer, brighter.

Down right awesome work, its been nice to see the progress and the input from the members.

Yazan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

Uazan: Thanks! Crits and advice are very appreciated here too!

Headlights take 25! Grief these things are hard to get right! When I make them clearer the prisms lose clarity! All the clear glass is already 0 diffuse and 100 transparent. I am playing with specular and luminous to bring out the prisms, but still the top fades out while other parts blow out. Maybe I should use more than one prism material for different parts?

How does this version look? Any ideas to improve?

Also narrowed the sidewalls of the tires just a bit.

-Jeff

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

Much better on the headlights now :) I still think the tyres and the bumper moulding look a little too light though, should't they be a much darker grey? they look kinda washed out.
Amazing modeling though.

Livonia, Michigan - USA
1603 posts

Headlights 100% improved.
Ford oval needs to be darker blue, not baby-boy-blanket-blue :-)

Message edited by cszetela on 6/16/2006 - 2:58 PM

This is looking just awesome. Easily one of the most realistic automobile renders I've seen. Once you get it plopped into a scene that does it justice it'll be damned near photorealistic.

6/16/2006 - 2:59 PM

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Jeff Rutan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

Kev: Well, if you look at the reference photos at the top of this page you will see that the black stuff is not very black in real life- even in the shade of a tree. With studio lighting, the black rubber parts look a bit gray even on brand new vehicles. However, my truck is nearly 10 years old in real life and I am trying to make it look more like new in the model. I will experiment with darkening at least the bumper piece a bit.

cszetela: Thanks!!! Or are you just saying that to let me off the hook? ;-) I did darken the Ford logo on the back a lot since the last rear view render, and I darkened the front one too a bit, but I will darken them just a bit more (note that it is not really very dark in the reference photos in the shade and it looks brighter/lighter in brighter lights).

Ryan: Thanks for the complement! I think there are several more realistic than mine just in this forum, and many more in other forums.

If you want to see some REALLY great 3D vehicles check out this site:

http://www.cg-cars.com/forum/index.php?

I didn't plan to do a photorealistic scene with this, but I may be talked into it before I am done. I am really very inexperienced at this surfacing and rendering stuff and I have never tried to do a real photorealistic scene. There are some very fine vehicle render / environment photo composite works in this forum in the last few weeks, so maybe I will get the courage to try it. However, I really just want to get this project finished and move on to my next project that I plan to do entirely in modo.

I never thought I would make this truck look so realistic, but users in the LightWave forum and in this forum keep pushing me to add details and improve surfaces until it is looking much better than I ever dreamed it could! These forums are really great for that!

Nice to see another modo user/enthusiast here in San Diego! Hopefully we can form a local modo user group! I attend a local LightWave user group occasionally, but most of them hate modo because a bunch of the best developers left LightWave to build modo.

-Jeff

P.S.: I updated the last posted image with your suggestions. You may need to hit refresh to load the updated image.

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

Message edited by Jeff Rutan on 6/17/2006 - 6:31 AM

6/17/2006 - 6:11 AM

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Jeff Rutan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

This render is with the stage removed. The HDR image is all around the truck so no shadows but lots of reflections. Some of the reflections are distorted due to the quality of the light probe image, not a fault of the geometry. This render kind of looks cool, but the truck is suspended in space. How can I add a floor that looks like the floor in the HDR image and catches shadows from the truck?
Thanks,
-Jeff

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

Livonia, Michigan - USA
1603 posts

Jeff, the Ford oval looks a bit distorted and the blue should be darker, deeper.
The grill detail needs more specular light and diffused light - it looks lost right now.

Lookin' great so far!!

Message edited by cszetela on 6/19/2006 - 6:54 PM

6/19/2006 - 6:53 PM

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Jeff Rutan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

Cszetela: Even if your screen is dramatically brighter than mine, the blue color on this logo is slightly DARKER than the blue on the logo in my reference photo at the top of this page (looking at the images side-by-side on the same screen). I did darken this and updated the previous image too at your previous suggestion. However, the reference picture is in the shade, and the actual blue color is even lighter in bright light like in this scene.

Ford changed the background for their truck logos when they did the last major body style upgrade a few years ago. The new background color is a deep midnight blue, but before that it was this basic medium blue (and no it has not faded that much). The old logo is a bit more convex than the newer ones too- causing a bit of the distortion that you see here.

The grill and the rubber and plastic parts of the bumper all have just about the same specular level in real life (new or old), so I use the same material for all. I originally had these more specular, but others commented that they were too light, so I darkened them (reducing specular) to make them look newer. I guess I can't please everyone on the blacks. However, I know that different users have different screen settings so images look significantly different to each user. We can't do anything about that (unless we require everyone here to calibrate their screens and the lighting in their workspaces). However, I will put a little more specular back in for next time.

I did notice in this last render that the line around the hood is too dark. That is because I have a black liner under there. I need to lighten that so the shadow is not so abrupt.

I was hoping for some advice on how to start making a more realistic scene. I like the dramatic reflections on the truck without the stage there, but I need something underneath to catch the shadows and show a realistic ground texture (preferably matching the floor in the HDR image). Does anyone have any tricks or tips to help make that happen? Or should I just alpha out the entire background for a composite in PhotoShop? Any tips on doing that?

Thanks,
-Jeff

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

Looks great Jeff! Some useful info about the shadow catcher here: http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=7966&show=catcher

What about taking a similar approach to what keith used for his sports car?

6/20/2006 - 8:10 AM

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Jeff Rutan

San Diego, CA USA
2150 posts

Rockmed: Thanks! I will study that and try some things and/or alpha out as you suggested for the 350Z.

Gogosh: Will you please link me to Keith's thread? What is his user name? I can't find a Keith in the WIP forum.

Thanks,
-Jeff

san diego modo user group: www.sdmodo.org
product design+development: www.jeffrutan.com
LEGO fun: www.aerospacebricker.com
business fun: www.timeitnow.com

6/20/2006 - 8:50 AM

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