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Topic - (04-28-2006) They blinded me with science!
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Tg Mures, Romania
67 posts
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Sorry to barge in.. but is Spring indeed across Europe at the moment. So we're all getting 201 this spring I suppose.. Unfortunatelly T4D will get it only by Autumn. :)
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5/1/2006 - 5:21 AM
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Amsterdam
1450 posts
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when currently only some people are reporting better stability then 103 I'd rather wait untill everyone reports mucho better stability.
The instability I get when customizing Modo is driving me nuts. The tool pipe out of the box is just not the way I like to work, so I'm saving preset tools and this seems to make Modo much more unstable.
I'm currently making incremental back ups of my cfg every time I make a change which helps but it's a workflow killer.
www.toonafish.nl
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources" | Albert Einstein
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5/1/2006 - 6:10 AM
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California
3693 posts
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Quote from Toonafish :
when currently only some people are reporting better stability then 103 I'd rather wait untill everyone reports mucho better stability.
The instability I get when customizing Modo is driving me nuts. The tool pipe out of the box is just not the way I like to work, so I'm saving preset tools and this seems to make Modo much more unstable.
I'm currently making incremental back ups of my cfg every time I make a change which helps but it's a workflow killer.
Its kinda scary that such a little file has so much power over how stable your software runs...its just scary.
I did have some tool pipe preset also, with the old config, + custom layout. it cause Modo to be unstable, new config(no custom layout, no toolpipe preset), Modo is stable as a rock..no crashes so far. Oh yeah, before with the old config, i couldnt load background images, it would crash Modo.
Not complaining just stating some observation. im so scary of stability issues that i might not customized 201 either.
The human race is going through a shift in consciousness, from 3D to 5D. Reattach to your higher self and wake up! 10/10/10-11/11/11-12/21/12
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5/1/2006 - 6:28 AM
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Oxford, England
749 posts
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..it is spring. When we have 16deg C in the north of Norway it is spring everywhere! Been out all morning and life is wonderful. Take care everyone, 201 will be here soon enough.
Twitter: leifm
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5/1/2006 - 6:37 AM
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Zhaoqing, China
353 posts
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Quote from leifmagne :
..it is spring. When we have 16deg C in the north of Norway it is spring everywhere! Been out all morning and life is wonderful. Take care everyone, 201 will be here soon enough.
All last week it was fine here in the North East of England, and was very much like spring - shirt sleeves and sunglasses. Today, with it being a Bank Holiday, we have the usual overcast skies, occasional light rain showers and low temperatures. No doubt tomorrow will be back to being spring again!
Cheers,
Malcolm
'England Expects That Every Man Will Do His Duty' - Vice Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson, 21st October, 1805
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5/1/2006 - 7:06 AM
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Athens , Greece
185 posts
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It's nice to see all these opinions about what's gonna happen with the release :)
at least nice for me to read them all while drinking coffe.
Actually this post is for one more vote about showing us the whats new/bugfixes in a list if possible :)
@leifmagne
i still dont understand how u survive there in minus 30deg in the winter...i mean really thats great.
anyway lets see what this friday will get us :)
Jesus Saves,I don't
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5/1/2006 - 7:30 AM
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702 posts
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Quote from geoff b :
Thank you!
Go back to the announcements where Brad refers to GENERALITY as one of the key features of the Nexus programming environment.
It allows for rapid evolution of features and functions without rewriting core code, hence faster development times relative to other programming environments of the past.
It does NOT mean that Nexus was a "complete, finished product" at Siggraph 2005, hosting a "modo window".
Any assertion that Lux was demoing a finished product at Siggraph 2005 is beyond absurd, and implies a very distorted understanding of what a programming environment actually is.
Brad said Nexus handles objects over time. The Nexus evnironment took two years for Luxology to develop. As the development evironment for the stand alone modo product Nexus is a finished product. Because, if it wasn't how would you develop a product from the environment? If I listen to you we are having the "chicken v. the egg" discussion.
what I find absurd is that fact that many of you can't seem to grasp the conecpt that at Siggraph 05 nexus was used to demo the functions and not a stand alone modo product was used to demo the functions.
What rapid evolution of features and functions? Its been 9 months since Siggraph 05. If modo 201 is relased in June of 06 that is less then two months from the original showing of modo 201. One year is rapid evolution? During the same time frame softimage has released verison 5 of XSI and is at 5.1 as we speak. Two months ago someone stated, in this forum, that Softimage is working on paint tools for XSI; so by the time you see the paint tools in modo 201 within a month you'll probably see Softimage demoing the same tools that you've been waiting for a year. This is with 15 year old code.
There is no rapid evolution here with the current verison of modo and that should worry Luxology. Luxology made some big statements about Nexus that isn't supported by reality. There is a problem with pulling the stand alone product, modo, out of Nexus and have that stand alone product, modo, be stable, and usable without quirks that frustrates the enduser.
If Luxology is pushing the envelop that the other companies are not. Then the question is, at this point in time, will it be worth the pain and will it payoff. Modo 103's OpenGL viewport is probably the best, at this point in time, within the 3D industry, but Lux chose to raise the OpenGL bar with modo 201. Now they have the Nvidia problem. Did they need to raise the OpenGL bar, no Lux already has the best OpenGL viewport. Luxology chose to shoot itself in the foot when they could have backed off and waited until modo 301 to raise the OpenGL bar.
What Luxology is suffering through is what they made, but we are having to wait because of it. If Lux can't release modo 201 before the end of June or July then the pre-order customers should have a beta copy to work with. I haven't pre-order modo so this doesn't effect me. The people that have stood by Lux with their 9 months of pre-order deserve something more then the Friday videos that everyone of us has the use of.
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5/1/2006 - 9:06 AM
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Martian Megalopolis, Olympus Mons, Mars
7780 posts
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FBK
1) Nexus is NOT a 'product' but a development environment. Modo is the product.
2) When you consider the SIZE of Lux as in number of employees factored into the development time vs. say an Avid or Autodesk with more than 10X the number of employees - nexus does seem impressive indeed.
3)Some of the Modo 201 bugs were not Modo related but in fact relating to Nvidia - something Lux can not controll. And traking down those bugs took time.
4) For someone who doesn't actually own a copy of Modo, you seem to 'know' a lot about it ;)
"Rommel, you magnificent bastard. I read your book!" -George Patton
http://aoleonthemartiangirl.com
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5/1/2006 - 9:11 AM
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Plymouth, UK
667 posts
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Quote from fbk :
I haven't pre-order modo so this doesn't effect me.
Then please give up with all the nonsense you're filling the forums with. You've aptly demonstrated that you know nothing about software development, and even if you did have greater knowledge, only Luxology know the specifics of how they work.
We've heard you. We've each decided if we care. Time to move on.
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5/1/2006 - 9:14 AM
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Maryland (US)
318 posts
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I just looked at a thread over at CGTAlk about the release of a competing modeller with displacement painting. There are positives and negatives in the thread. It's funny to read the posts as they highlight all the problems many in this forum are concerned will happen if Modo 201 is released too early. It makes you take a deep breath and wait for a solid release of 201.
Message edited by jrsunshine on 5/1/2006 - 9:56 AM
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5/1/2006 - 9:56 AM
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California
3693 posts
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Quote from Michael Kearns :
Then please give up with all the nonsense you're filling the forums with. You've aptly demonstrated that you know nothing about software development, and even if you did have greater knowledge, only Luxology know the specifics of how they work.
We've heard you. We've each decided if we care. Time to move on.
I totally agree..FBX has a habit of going on and on and on...Im not a programmer so i cant really say i understand his point or why their is a huge delay in 201, but as 2003 pointed out..driver bugs, and IMO seem added features put in at the last minute(color UV edge).
Quote from jrsunshine :
I just looked at a thread over at CGTAlk about the release of a competing modeller with displacement painting. There are positives and negatives in the thread. It's funny to read the posts as they highlight all the problems many in this forum are concerned will happen if Modo 201 is released too early. It makes you take a deep breath and wait for a solid release of 201.
OT:
Hex 2? ;) i was going to buy it..but i hear its kinda buggy. So its a NO buy for me, i want a good product, not a buggy one. I really hate buggy software(get it as perfect as possible!).
The human race is going through a shift in consciousness, from 3D to 5D. Reattach to your higher self and wake up! 10/10/10-11/11/11-12/21/12
Message edited by Son Kim on 5/1/2006 - 10:20 AM
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5/1/2006 - 10:17 AM
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702 posts
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If those of you that don't want to here me respond to your replies, then stop responding to my posting. If you people feel you have the right to quote me while posting. Then I have the right to respond to your post.
Use some common sense and quit using my name and quit quoting me. I have the right to defend my name and my quotes from the rest of you that don't like what you hear, or don't wnat to hear anymore about the subject.
If there is a problem here it is because of you who keep quoting me and using my name.
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5/1/2006 - 10:34 AM
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Edge of the World
246 posts
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Do you have an 'off' button?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Matte Painter @ Weta Digital
Message edited by Dutch Dimension on 5/1/2006 - 12:40 PM
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5/1/2006 - 11:45 AM
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234 posts
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Quote from RobBob :
I could really use imagesynth in quite a number of places...
Man you said a mouthfull there. I have a bunch of textures that I could really use imagsynth on.
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5/1/2006 - 12:25 PM
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Cary North Carolina
1003 posts
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In regards to the others that feel like the wait has been too long I think that someone needs to remind everyone about the why and the what of software development. When making decisions that affect the marketing policy of a company, often times there is little correlation between the sales guys and the code guys. The coders will define the parameters of their work by stating in the clearest possible language the benefits of doing things the way they are doing them. The marketing people then take this language and try to produce some kind of positive image about the situation created by "the state of the code."
I run into this all the time with my programmers, we have a discussion about new functionality in CoalEngine and the language being used makes it sound like you'll be able to do all of this, x y and z features and not only that but because we're using this method here to produce it, you'll be able to do it tomorrow; to boot. I then approach my clients for funding of this development, and then discover that when they said rapid, they really meant rapid prototyping or some other variant of the adverb "fast."
As an owner you have a couple of choices, but almost always decidedly you're going to back your team. Without them you've got nothing, kind of like Hexagon or whatever when they finally wear out their contract.
All this said however, I do believe that a certain amount of criticism in this case is actually a healthy thing for Lux. If nothing else they could prune these sometimes harsh and overly wordy verbal slashes for the more poignant subjects to develop a more down-to-earth marketing position for the future. I'm sure that the agency that represents Lux in this endeavor has already started making suggestions like this, playing a bit closer to the vest for the future. While I'm not positive, I feel pretty certain that had they waited to begin preorders until there was a closed beta of 201, nobody would be raising a fist now, so near to a release date.
Either way, while I feel somewhat let-down by the consistently abstract notion of getting a solid date, or just a finished product, I can totally understand their hesitation and support their decision not as a "fan" of their product, but as a "user." Users "use" software, there's another word entirely for someone that walks with trepidation down the dark hallway of unstable software applications, cautiously awaiting the next zombie to pop out of the shadows and cut their heads off. People of this level of zeal and commitment often-times find themselves bringing more negativity to the situation than optimism or constructive criticism; in my humblest of experiences.
I'm pretty sure the word isn't "Beta Tester."
http://www.coalmarch.com New. Media. Solutions. (Raleigh NC)
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5/1/2006 - 12:33 PM
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7 posts
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I am new here and love it here. Thanks to all of you for making this a cool place to hang out. Tha being said.... We have recieved REGULAR updates from Mr. Peebler. He has shared a great deal with us. How many of you wait for the Friday updates to come around?! We get we he gives us and then we wait for the next update.
I just ordered Hex 2.Sure, I paid $32.00. It's cute and has some nice features and is worth $32.00. (still a great deal.) I AM NOT cutting Hex 2 at all, but I am making a point. Hex shipped with some bugs, the documentation is NOWHERE near what Modo has going for it and there is just a tiny Hex presence on the Web. There is just so much more coming from Luxology than the others that are out there.
Id software's approach: It's gonna be done at a time and place of our choosing and if you don't like it - fu** you! (paraphrasing)
Nobody wants 201 more than me, but considering how we could be being treated and the quality that others have shipped to satisfy their customer base, we're in a pretty good spot...
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5/1/2006 - 12:57 PM
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BROOKLYN NY
240 posts
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I wish someone from LUX would reply to these questions....?
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5/1/2006 - 12:59 PM
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Virginia, USA
2047 posts
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I wish someone from LUX would reply to these questions....?
Now THAT is an interesting comment. At least I think so. We all sit here and argue, defending one position or another and the ones that know what is going on say nothing. Of course, they have an excellent reason (excuse?) ... they are busing completing 201 :) .
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5/1/2006 - 1:06 PM
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Vancouver
1862 posts
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What questions? 30 days ago Mr. Peebler said that they would release it when they are satisfied with the stability. Seeing as they haven't released it we can assume they aren't yet satisfied. What else do you want them to say? What you guys *want* to hear is that the gold master has been sent for duplication and that the download torrent will be online within 2 hours. Obviously if he was able to say that, he would, I'm sure he would like nothing better. However seeing as he hasen't said that there's really nothing else for him *to* say. Other than possibly promising another date that may be again missed, and none of us want that.
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5/1/2006 - 1:10 PM
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Vancouver
1862 posts
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Quote from Dan_Silverman :
Now THAT is an interesting comment. At least I think so. We all sit here and argue, defending one position or another and the ones that know what is going on say nothing. Of course, they have an excellent reason (excuse?) ... they are busing completing 201 :) .
exactly. :)
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5/1/2006 - 1:11 PM
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Leipzig, Germany
1126 posts
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Quote from fbk :
Brad said Nexus handles objects over time. The Nexus evnironment took two years for Luxology to develop. As the development evironment for the stand alone modo product Nexus is a finished product. Because, if it wasn't how would you develop a product from the environment? If I listen to you we are having the "chicken v. the egg" discussion.
I think you are missing the point. Even C/C++ compilers are in a constant state of flux (development) and not just because of ever new CPUs coming out, Linux currently has 3 or 4 kernel trees, each of the branches still being actively developed, MySQL has a similar situation and very well-known cross platform libraries such as QT or the Gnome base libraries have about 2 minor version steps each month. That's to name but a few. Remember, all of these are development tools, only of value to a programmer, so if those are evolving constantly, why shouldn't Nexus? I'd be quite disappointed if Nexus got stuck at some point, thus not being able to acommodate for new market demands and crazy ideas.
Quote from fbk :
what I find absurd is that fact that many of you can't seem to grasp the conecpt that at Siggraph 05 nexus was used to demo the functions and not a stand alone modo product was used to demo the functions.
True, but since modo is using Nexus' libs, it's just another subset of functions and it thusly isn't entirely incorrect to assume that on some level modo == Nexus. As I see it, modo is just a polished, user-oriented version of parts of Nexus (read me right: parts of Nexus, not Nexus as such).
Quote from fbk :
What rapid evolution of features and functions? Its been 9 months since Siggraph 05. If modo 201 is relased in June of 06 that is less then two months from the original showing of modo 201. One year is rapid evolution? During the same time frame softimage has released verison 5 of XSI and is at 5.1 as we speak. Two months ago someone stated, in this forum, that Softimage is working on paint tools for XSI; so by the time you see the paint tools in modo 201 within a month you'll probably see Softimage demoing the same tools that you've been waiting for a year. This is with 15 year old code.
Forgive my saying so, but you make it sound like Nexus was a self-aware, sentient being that could be told to squeeze out an working app at the push of a button. This is completely unrealistic, especially at such mathematically abstract and intricate levels as graphics programming requires. You know, it's not like the building a Word-Rehash using MFC and a few Windows-internal controls... Other than that, you should consider that Avid/ Softimage indeed have more people devoted to developing XSI (about 60 vs. Lux' 15 or something), just liek Marinello said.
Quote from fbk :
There is no rapid evolution here with the current verison of modo and that should worry Luxology. Luxology made some big statements about Nexus that isn't supported by reality. There is a problem with pulling the stand alone product, modo, out of Nexus and have that stand alone product, modo, be stable, and usable without quirks that frustrates the enduser.
Again, you are forgetting that development environments function differently from end-user apps. Stability problems are common in any software development, and if you think Lux are the only ones going thru this, you should try and join a Beta of one of their competitors - it's no different there, they are just keeping it more under wraps.
Quote from fbk :
If Luxology is pushing the envelop that the other companies are not. Then the question is, at this point in time, will it be worth the pain and will it payoff. Modo 103's OpenGL viewport is probably the best, at this point in time, within the 3D industry, but Lux chose to raise the OpenGL bar with modo 201. Now they have the Nvidia problem. Did they need to raise the OpenGL bar, no Lux already has the best OpenGL viewport. Luxology chose to shoot itself in the foot when they could have backed off and waited until modo 301 to raise the OpenGL bar.
Sorry, but "all good things to those that wait" doesn't work in this industry. I think modo will have such a big advantage in this area, it will be hard for even the biggest competitor to reach it and therefore I can only welcome this move. In doing so, they are even laying a sound foundation for pushing even further (as most is "just" OpenGL 1.5/1.6, there's room to move to 2.0 or even 3.0), something that other manufacturers with their then outdated implementation won't be able to do at all. Sure, the effort in making it idiot-proof seems excessive, but since many of the more severe issues are not their fault, you can't exactly blame them...
[Pour Mylene, ange sur terre]
Message edited by Mylenium on 5/1/2006 - 1:27 PM
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5/1/2006 - 1:26 PM
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Leipzig, Germany
1126 posts
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Quote from fbk :
What Luxology is suffering through is what they made, but we are having to wait because of it. If Lux can't release modo 201 before the end of June or July then the pre-order customers should have a beta copy to work with. I haven't pre-order modo so this doesn't effect me. The people that have stood by Lux with their 9 months of pre-order deserve something more then the Friday videos that everyone of us has the use of.
That one I can agree on at least in part, but personally I feel that even just with the videos they are giving us more than some other companies do (where everything is strictly kept in closed circles until the product can be bought). On the other hand I feel that is also a big part of the problem: If we didn't know what modo 201 was going to offer and we all hadn't already started to think of how to include those tools into our workflows, we wouldn't have the hots, so to speak. One could say in this case "Ignorance is bliss" - the less you knew, the less excited you'dd be about modo, but we've moved beyond this point long ago. Now there's no way to turn back.
Mylenium
[Pour Mylene, ange sur terre]
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5/1/2006 - 1:27 PM
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Emeryville, CA
24 posts
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Quote from Sonk :
Its kinda scary that such a little file has so much power over how stable your software runs...its just scary.
You mean like the Windows Registry? ;)
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5/1/2006 - 1:28 PM
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San Antonio, TX
2022 posts
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There is a problem with pulling the stand alone product, modo, out of Nexus and have that stand alone product, modo, be stable, and usable without quirks that frustrates the enduser.
You make some good arguments but unfortunately it seems that very few people on this board even understand how programming works. Pulling it out of Nexus? The only way 'Nexus' would be able to 'run' modo is if it were an interpreter. In order for Lux to have demoed the features at SIG it had to be an executable. It's very easy, everything at those events is rehursed. Every tool they plan to use is checked to make sure it will work. They run through the presentation a dozen times to make sure it goes smooth. They were demoing FEATURES, not a finished product. Just because they were able to show you a couple puzzle peices doesn't mean the puzzle was almost put together, or easy to put together. You have no idea if it was a 100 or 10,000 peice puzzle. Thats just how it is. You can blame it on Nexus, you can blame it on Lux, or this or that. The reality is it's not out and the majority of people can't truely understand why, having not done programming, so they just make educated but seriously flawed guesses at why. There is no point at discussing WHY it's not out if you have no idea what your even talking about. It's pointless to even bitch about it.
Message edited by RazorX on 5/1/2006 - 1:34 PM
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5/1/2006 - 1:30 PM
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931 posts
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Quote from tingham :
All this said however, I do believe that a certain amount of criticism in this case is actually a healthy thing for Lux. "
I agree on that. fortunately, Lux is a young company that can understand also from their userbase what works, and what don't.
What I in all honesty think is that they've a serious inheritance fron old Newtek times, in which they also were pioneers on software development, with great ideas in ease of use and a good philosophy about network rendering, and more.
But beware : now times have changed alot : the bar has being raised alot, from software like Maya, and XSI, so Lux should be IMHO more quick, determined and somewhat aggressive in the market, not so much in terms of marketing, but in terms of developing as well.
think also in terms to hire young and talented
developing people.
so, for example we now have Hexagon, that buggy or not offers more than what Modo 201 promises in terms of modelling and sculpting. Its perfect ? no, BTW but its surely worth its $32 and maybe more.
we also have something like XSI foundation for $500.
so IMO what's happening for 201 shouldn't happen with animation and other features users would like for Modo future.
it would be a quite suicidal tendency to do so.
What we actually expect from Lux is real innovation, R&Dev with the animator in mind, in the different areas of 3d content creation.
more attention on good data exchange with other apps, too. so .fbx can be good, but also CAD files have to be taken in HUGE consideration. things like history/construction history, as well.
sculpting will be needed.
also, i'd personally expect more attention both in marketing and pricing.
in facts, Modo 101 was very pricey for the offered features, and 201 will be a bit pricey as well, even with good rendering and painting features.
so as an example as a marketing strategy i probably would have choosen something like $250 for Modo 101, and something like $300-350 for 201, because at the very end you get an app for modelling , texturing, stills work. -ok a great app, for modelling, texturing and stills work.
so, making price grow, as the app grows would have been a better choice IMO.
Another thing to bear in mind is that, as Modo becomes more complete, the competition with apps like Maya, XSI, C4D, grows exponentially, so everithing needs to be done to develop a fantastic app.
So 9 months of delay will NEVER be a possibility again.
I say this , because i appreciate Lux work so far, but i also think that things could be waay better.
in short words : wake up.
Not Modo 202'ed (yet)
Message edited by Nemoid on 5/1/2006 - 1:43 PM
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5/1/2006 - 1:39 PM
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