Forum > Luxology > News & Announcements > (11-16-2007) Quick! Look over here!!!

Topic - (11-16-2007) Quick! Look over here!!!

bruce long

Chicago
421 posts

You prove to me that we live in a society that has no direction as to what is bad or good. God aside when people say I can't believe someone still believes in God it shows that there is no direction God or no God good or bad. So I should not expect so much of people because it is OK to steal, and to want something for nothing. Turn a blind eye to the fact that people make a living from a product and from using one. Lets through all caution to the wind.

Happy Thanksgiving

I've said my peace.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

11/20/2007 - 7:05 PM

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Son Kim

California
3690 posts

i never said it was OK to steal, but there is a big difference between robbing someones home(or of any physical personal property, i.e. hardware), were people have gotten murder for it, and casual piracy. Apple, and oranges really..

Quote from bruce long :
Your the one that looses money in the long run companies will do what they can to stop the ones that are stealing. That is lost money that helps great product to be made and at a reasonable price. Look at Autdesk, compare the price. I think modo has more bang for the buck but people will argue that too. Any time you steal some thing there are losers Just think if people where honest a company might be more apt to give a product to some one free to try but where would you find that in our society. We have only done this to ourselves.

Happy thanksgiving

Thats a great excuse for Autodesk to charge more, but i'm not buying it(pun intended), especially for a company who isn't knew for innovation, which is evident with every new point release of 3DSMAX. Ironically,IMO one of the main reason 3DSMAX has gotten very popular thru the ages was because of piracy.

Indeed, happy thanksgiving all! im kinda looking forward to Christmas more, because of the christmas songs :D

The human race is going through a shift in consciousness, from 3D to 5D. Reattach to your higher self and wake up! 10/10/10-11/11/11-12/21/12

Message edited by Son Kim on 11/20/2007 - 7:53 PM

The concept is stealing, murdering, there all wrong! That's how they are connected. If you think it is ok to steal then what next raping, murdering, Hell lets just blow up the world for that mater. All I am saying is ( if you were following were the conversation was going) is that if as a society we do not have a direction this is the result. Stealing is OK! (sarcasm intended) the point was made for effect, to get the point across. If you did not get that I'm sorry but to play along you have to follow. But the main point of this hole thred is that to pay $25.00 for a training video and OH by the way we are throughing in a free 30day full functioning copy of modo is not that bad of a deal that everyone is questioning. Well maybe not everyone!.

Cheers.

11/20/2007 - 8:50 PM

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RazorX

San Antonio, TX
2022 posts

What about duplication, is duplication ok?

Oh and I was talking from experence on the cost of products going up in price because of theft in the retail buisness. I did not say that was because modo was higher or that Auto desk was for that matter. I just was saying that Auto desk was pricer then modo and that theft can effect us all.

Thanks RazorX you made me laugh out loud.

Quote from RazorX :
What about duplication, is duplication ok?

I think Sonk was trying to say that some/lots people have pirated copies of software because they could, and not because they would/can make use of it. In those cases, the pirate would not have purchased or use the software anyway, so it shouldn't be counted as a lost sale. On the other hand, there are people who do use pirated software daily, and they MAY end up buying the software or steer someone toward it. Numbers to support either of the two cases are hard to come by since not too many people/companies will come out and say they are pirates and they have (not) purchase the software later on.

Speaking of piracy...
I was told by a freelancer that I worked with, who had worked on a cg animated movie from a major studio, that they used pirated software to create, rig, and animate the characters and scenes in the movie. And they shipped these guys out to Asia to supervise/manage/train the locals that worked on this project. I find it amusing that they have the budget to pay the actors but not the $ for the licenses for the software.

11/20/2007 - 9:37 PM

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ikearumba

Nashville, TN, USA, Earth
75 posts

Hey, just turning me on to Afro Celt Sound System was worth my $25.....

Industrial designer doing archviz.
www.dgviz.com

11/20/2007 - 9:45 PM

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Elfboy

Santa Cruz, CA
594 posts

Quote from Sixer :
...In those cases, the pirate would not have purchased or use the software anyway, so it shouldn't be counted as a lost sale.

Yep. As I originally said, not every theft is a lost sale (only the (MP/RI)AA uses that sort of twisted math). The ratio is probably 1 in 100 or so. How about the studio that buys a single license for their team, and cracks 20 copies to run on their renderfarm... How is that not stealing?

Quote from Sixer :

On the other hand, there are people who do use pirated software daily, and they MAY end up buying the software or steer someone toward it.

Two quick comments...'MAYBE' does not pay the bills. Plus what is the incentive for them to 'go legit'. Their own good conscience?? Either some external force (BSA audit) or a difficult to crack next version.

Having said that, yes you're right. There is some value to theft. I firmly believe that Adobe has the dominance it does today due to the rampant theft that went on. Businesses would buy enough licenses to keep Adobe afloat and they'd get market penetration via people stealing it from their work. Now that they're the 800lb gorilla, they've tightened things up with the phone home registration\activation. Autodesk's CAD market has probably help support the rampant theft in the Max area as well. I'm sure Maya's training/support/maintenance contacts help offset their losses.

Quote from Sixer :

Speaking of piracy...
...that they used pirated software to create, rig, and animate the characters and scenes in ...

That does not surprise me in the least...

And on the 'but it's not stealing, it's not a physical item, it's just duplicating' debate.

Mind if I copy your hard drive? I'm sure I could use the content there for something...maybe I'll paypal you a nickel if I really like that model you spent a week on.

It really boggles my mind that folks in a creative field, that produce intellectual based work/art (and digital work/art at that) are so short sighted to not see how ripping each other off is detrimental to the entire industry.

------------------------------------------
* We dance where angels fear to tread *

11/20/2007 - 10:26 PM

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Dan_Silverman

Virginia, USA
2042 posts

Piracy is rampant. I worked for a company that had a staff of 10 artists and about 30 programmers. Before leaving the company I learned that just about all the workstations for the programmers had pirated copies of the programming environment that they used. It turns out this is pretty common (unfortunately) and, therefore, it is not just hobbyists and people who won't use the software that download pirated software.

Quote from bruce long :
You seem to have alot of Hot air for someone that likes to point the finger. I try to make a difference in peoples lives I'm not perfect and know one can clame to be, but as Chris has said there is a thing that we call (in so many words) a conscience of what is right and what is wrong. In the matter of theft I think you may want to rethink your ideas. Just a thought!

When it comes to pointing fingers, go check the postings, I'm not the one who accused me of being a software hacker (someone else started pointing fingers here).

So as an employee of the retail store you caught bad guys. The difference here is that I'm not an employee of the software company, nor are you; so it isn't your job to run about the internet catching software hackers. Just because you own modo doesn't give you the right to run around looking for software hackers.

As for this conscience you talk about. That is a moving target here in the 3D community. How many galleries are filled with the proud displays of iPhones, iPod, Sony HDTVs, Tiefighter, etc.,. How many of these proud 3D have prior permission from the companies to use their intellectual property for personnal, or monetary gain (very few, if any). How many of you are right now are making a model of someones intellectual property without their permission? Where is their cut of you personnal, or monetary gain?

You guys are pirating intellecutal property without a second thought, so don't talk to me about conscience. Everytime you build a copy of copyrighted material without the copyrighters permission you are pirating their product for your own personnal, or monetary gain.

Quote from bruce long :
The concept is stealing, murdering, there all wrong! That's how they are connected. If you think it is ok to steal then what next raping, murdering, Hell lets just blow up the world for that mater. All I am saying is ( if you were following were the conversation was going) is that if as a society we do not have a direction this is the result. Stealing is OK! (sarcasm intended) the point was made for effect, to get the point across. If you did not get that I'm sorry but to play along you have to follow. But the main point of this hole thred is that to pay $25.00 for a training video and OH by the way we are throughing in a free 30day full functioning copy of modo is not that bad of a deal that everyone is questioning. Well maybe not everyone!.

Cheers.

You see an stanger beating another person to death, so you hit him and he ends up dead. You just murdered a man that wasn't doing any harm to you, was that wrong?

Later you find out that the person you killed was defending himself from the person (you saved) who had just tried to kill him. You killed a man who was trying to kill his killer, how right are you now?

In the 21st century what stealing, what is wrong from right, when is killing wrong and when is it right?

William Buffett, a billonaire, was on TV the other day complaining about the 18% he has to pay on taxes, and how wrong it was (the government is stealing from him). Let's forget the fact that the average person working at the local burp & slurp pays 25-to-33% in tax on their minimum wage job.

Message edited by robscott on 11/21/2007 - 6:56 AM

I think someone is alittle testy here! get back to me when you have followed the thred.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Quote from Jesse Pro :
heres what I think -
1. $25 too test modo and if you buy refund them the $25.
2. If they have purchased modo before - they should be entitled to a free e-val. because they are serious.

It's that simple -

Agreed.

Oooook, they all died. Sooo...what was the fricking island??

Santa Cruz, CA
594 posts

Quote from robscott :

Everytime you build a copy of copyrighted material without the copyrighters permission you are pirating their product for your own personnal, or monetary gain.

*bzzzz* wrong.

Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 107 :

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Use for the curious. It has a nice FAQ at the end and links to commentary on other IP issues

I would say that most of the gallery iPods,iPhones, TieFighters you talk about fall squarely in the teaching/research arena. That and #1 and #4 weigh in (no effect on the existing copyright etc...)

Quote from robscott :

so it isn't your job to run about the internet catching software hackers. Just because you own modo doesn't give you the right to run around looking for software hackers.

You're right, owning modo does not give me any additional right to run around looking for software hackers. I don't need to own modo (or any single piece of software) to say, 'Hey, wanker. Stop stealing. You're putting my friends out of work. And if you steal enough, soon you'll have nothing left to steal'. So is it my job to protect my livelihood? Yep.

------------------------------------------
* We dance where angels fear to tread *

Carrying the flag for daft forum nicknames
2800 posts

hmmm, talk about a confusion of concepts.

There is a fundamental difference between making an artwork depicting a product (iPod, iPhone, Ferrari Testarossa, Wonderbra, whatever) and infringement of the IP rights of the manufacturer of said product - you are simply NOT copying the product itself, you are making an image. I believe that distinction is recognised in copyright law the world over.

At most, you might be accused of artistic plagiarism if you slavishly copied someone else's stunning gallery image and passed it off as your own 'vision'.

Message edited by Sorcerers Plaything on 11/21/2007 - 10:12 AM

11/21/2007 - 8:32 AM

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Son Kim

California
3690 posts

Quote from Elfboy :

You're right, owning modo does not give me any additional right to run around looking for software hackers. I don't need to own modo (or any single piece of software) to say, 'Hey, wanker. Stop stealing. You're putting my friends out of work. And if you steal enough, soon you'll have nothing left to steal'. So is it my job to protect my livelihood? Yep.

i totally disagree with that, thats like saying piracy increase the price of said software, they fall in the same boat in my book. The only reason Modo might fall under is because of legit users not buying a copy anymore(not because they can't afford it, because they are not interested in it). With the way Luxology introduce new modules(rooms) i don't see this happening. So i think its silly to blame the wankers, if Luxology is out of work. If you haven't notice, piracy has been around many many year, and non of the companies i know of are out of work. In the end, its the lack of interest and innovation that really drives a company down under.

And believe it or not, there is still value in owning a piece of software legally.

The human race is going through a shift in consciousness, from 3D to 5D. Reattach to your higher self and wake up! 10/10/10-11/11/11-12/21/12

Message edited by Son Kim on 11/21/2007 - 9:10 AM

Quote from Sonk :

i totally disagree with that, thats like saying piracy increase the price of said software, they fall in the same boat in my book. The only reason Modo might fall under is because of legit users not buying a copy anymore(not because they can't afford it, because they are not interested in it). With the way Luxology introduce new modules(rooms) i don't see this happening.

And believe it or not, there is still value in owning a piece of software legally.

I agree, point to the 3D art on the web produced by pirated software. If this person is good at 3D art, then it is just a matter of time before they are discovered. If he produces any art worth looking at Luxology and the other companies will take interest in his work, and the work of their product in his art.

If the art made with pirated software never makes it to the web; is never seen by the public, is that closet art?

If the pirate 3D artist brings his work to the public domain whats is he going to say about the software "Ooo its proprietary software." How long will that last when other 3D artist look at his work and say "that art looks like it was rendered in modo?" Therefore the pirate 3D artist will not get away with anything over time.

Alright I will tell you who pirate software - ME - when I was like 9 years old and up. My parents did not see the value in the software I wanted and I'm talking about flash, PS , Bryce ... ect, even maya which I could never have understood back then. So I think the majority of hackers are definitely younger kids who don't have money. I was one of them. Now that I'm older I have had summer jobs, what not - I buy the products I love, Like modo. It is a whole other dimension when you own the product if I had hacked modo then I would be cheating myself from there grate community. Thats why I know luxology Will sell there products. Because hackers should never show there face on this community or benefit from it at all. :D

Now I buy all my products. I am also learning that some are not worth the money I paid.

On another note - I was in class and my teacher was encouraging pirating and he said he has pirated software and then almost every student "PROUDLY" were boasting about how they know how to get this or that software - torrents and such. I have a feeling that there is some kind of "Good" feeling people get from doing this. As if they feel they figred out a flaw in the program. It was a strange experience. Because hacking is so easy, why were they all boasting.

My teacher is an industry professional so that means if industries have no sense of dignity then I feel like we have no hope. I really feel that the most hacked software is Photoshop. the only way they make money is probably from the school systems.

Quote from Elfboy :
I would say that most of the gallery iPods,iPhones, TieFighters you talk about fall squarely in the teaching/research arena. That and #1 and #4 weigh in (no effect on the existing copyright etc...)

None of Luxology's gallery is protected by the copyright law you've just quoted. Luxology and their gallery is not a accredited school, nor is it a research arena. None of the gallery renderings has anything to do with criticism, comment, news reporting. Number 4 does not protect anyone in the gallery from the copyright laws. It's not a question of can Apple take you to court for using the iPhone in your rendering, but will Apple take the time to take you to court for not having their permission to use the iPhone in your rendering.

The only thing that keeps companies from take everyone to court is the cost-over-return ratio. Can Apple, or for that matter any company, afford to take all of you pirates to court for the small return?

11/21/2007 - 12:20 PM

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LeonArtO3D

South Florida
395 posts

How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin?
(AND/OR)
What pedigree of Angel is it that dances?

....Dugh...

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 11/21/2007 - 2:35 PM

11/21/2007 - 12:52 PM

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Elfboy

+1 signal

Santa Cruz, CA
594 posts

Quote from robscott :

None of Luxology's gallery is protected by the copyright law you've just quoted.

Actually all of it is protected by copyright law, by default all creations are copyright of their creators.

You are really mixing up the concepts of Copyright, Trademark, and Patent here

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106

in brief, copyright covers :

(1) literary works;
(2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
(3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
(4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
(5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
(6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
(7) sound recordings; and
(8) architectural works.

In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery,

(I'll leave Patent and Trademark definitions as an exercise for what readers are left on this thread ;) )

So no Apple can not take me to court for making an artistic render of their iPhone.

Ceci n'est pas une iPod

8)

------------------------------------------
* We dance where angels fear to tread *

Message edited by Elfboy on 11/21/2007 - 1:35 PM

11/21/2007 - 1:31 PM

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LeonArtO3D

South Florida
395 posts

None of which (from my last post) has anything to do with the price of tea in China.

Brad: The 2 tutorials are very informative, and thought inspiring.

In fact, I have already accumulated 3 pages of notes on experiments to try next week when I get 301, (just related to these 2 tuts).

To All of you: I must apologize for my surliness of late. I plead only being out of sorts due to not having the creative outlet I need most at the moment: 301. When I get it, I will turn back into my normal self, only a cantankerous old fart when interrupted from my obsessive cramming for my 'Piled Higher & Deeper' in modo 3D. Which is to say: absent minded on other issues, tunnel-vision to the task at hand, anti-social; intolerant of mindlessness: mysticism, non-rational/non-objective morality, politics, metaphysics.....I..er..Well sure, that's how I am now, only normally I keep it to myself. "...and I don't like anybody very much" (Tom Lehrer). 99.9% of the modo community are cool beyond belief, and Luxology, one and all are the cream of humanity by all the standards I worship.

And that's enough of that too...

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 11/21/2007 - 2:37 PM

11/21/2007 - 2:34 PM

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3D Artist

Mountain View, CA, US
387 posts

Quote from robscott :

You guys are pirating intellecutal property without a second thought, so don't talk to me about conscience. Everytime you build a copy of copyrighted material without the copyrighters permission you are pirating their product for your own personnal, or monetary gain.

There is a difference between modeling something that is someone else's IP as a personal exercise, and selling a render of a product as something wholly their own.

If you take a photo of a Porsche, are you infringing on the automaker's intellectual property rights? No. Only if you copy the car design and sell it as your own, would you be infringing, but that has absolutely nothing to do with taking the photo itself. There is certainly a distinction.

Thanks for the videos Brad. I look forward to more in the series.

11/21/2007 - 3:18 PM

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