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Topic - (11-16-2007) Quick! Look over here!!!
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San Antonio, TX
2022 posts
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Quote from CGicore :
Maybe some people rather complain and moan at the pub holding a glass of Guinness when they charge 2.50 Pounds ($5.12 USD). At least that's what they used to charge at Lancaster, UK, when I used to work there as Webdesigner. And 5 minutes later, there I was at the bathroom again......... ppppppppssssssssssssssssssssss........ done, please another Guinness! Hummmm....
LOL, I spend over 25 dollars a week on alcohol easy. I make a few dollars less then 25/hr, but 25 is still nothing to me. Think about this... For all the time spent reading/complaining in this thread you surely could have made more than that 25 dollars. It's like a pointless crusade... to get your point across. Why is it pointless? Because the point is quite simple and you just keep repeating yourself every post.
int complaining=1;
int hell_freezes_over=0;
while(complaining)
{
//Point:
echo "Give me a free eval because I think I deserve it and my 25 dollars is my precious.";
//Counter:
echo "Your really paying for the training and bandwidth(really it's the training, Andy has to get paid).";
if(hell_freezes_over)
{
complaining=0;
}
}
I'm not talking about anyone in specific, just saying.
Cheers and Robscott, would you like me to send you 25 dollars so you can try it out? Or perhaps Brad will let me pay it on your behalf?
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11/18/2007 - 11:34 PM
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307 posts
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Quote from RazorX :
LOL, I spend over 25 dollars a week on alcohol easy. I make a few dollars less then 25/hr, but 25 is still nothing to me.
Cheers and Robscott, would you like me to send you 25 dollars so you can try it out? Or perhaps Brad will let me pay it on your behalf?
Well hell, if $25.00 is nothing to you, and christmas is just around the corner you can buy me a full blown copy of modo and the training materal. Why your at it start a collection and throw in a new highend computer while your at it (I don't want to get caught short on the rendering time). ;)
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11/19/2007 - 6:40 AM
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Lake Worth, FL
425 posts
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first off, thx Brad for the tuts ( as always on myPart ) they are greatly appreiated....
from my experience with lux thus far:: is they are fair folks....they offer an awesome program for a reasonalbe price, they try to stay close to they're users/customers, offering luxology.tv is a godSent!! and give free updates that not only fixes problems but add new features along with it....their training material ( Andy for ex ) is also reasonbly priced and honestly, worth more than what they cost...
some folks say it's not about the $25...but I wonder if it was say $5 or even $10 instead, would they still talk about it? I think not...
I mean how many of you brought something that you really didn't need?...what did you do?... take your loses and call it a day? consider it a bad investment?...it happens...however, MOST of the time it was worth it....
anyone that leaves lux...they'll be back, b/c I see great things coming from Modo in the near future....and I for one can't wait!!!
ltr-
- theMost important things inLife are usually theOnes withOut form -
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11/19/2007 - 7:20 AM
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61 posts
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I vote no on Prop 25!
I'll save some time. I agree with Dan's points.
Videos like the two new ones only emphasize his point. These videos help make up for the huge holes in the manual. It's as he said, "Hey we're telling you how to use certain features for the program you bought. They're free so stop whining about stuff. I don't like this being thrown at me repeatedly.
It's not the price, it's the principle it sets. The "it boogles the mind" comment doesn't sit well with me because it's too dismissive. As if we're (those who don't agree) too stupid to see through his eyes.
These videos are really a key marketing point for Lux. They make us feel good that the company is supporting their product. In the end, though, it's still marketing. That's the kind we can all buy into though. The videos benefit us and them as well
As for the "pay or don't pay" type of comments the only real issue is Lux could of had my upgrade money now instead of 6 months later. I don't feel that 301 has anything significant for me for what I do but it would have been nice to check. I can wait. I do wonder though, out of all the ones who say the charge is fine actually put up the cash.
Disclaimer: I typed this with a smile and expressed my point of view. If anything said seems harsh or offensive it wasn't meant to. Same could be said for Brad's comment I suppose. No animals were harmed in formulating this thought.
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11/19/2007 - 10:02 AM
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Memphis
431 posts
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Cheers to Luxology team for posting and making available a central , official location for the tutorials. Also, for making them affordable to the great majority of people.
The Modo manual is pretty well written - not perfect - but what is? I find that the manual gives me far more information about Modo than my Corolla's manual does about the car. A manual, for the most part is there to describe features of a product, it cannot teach one how to use the different features in every different scenario.
I recently spent $350.00 for my daughter to take driving lessons so that she knows how to handle the Corolla. It would have been irresponsible of me to give her the manual and expect her to be able to drive the car safely, responsibly, productively. I know of people who spend thousands of dollars if they wish to learn how to race cars. Same goes for any training - use the manual to learn features, use training to learn how to implement features.
For me, I can stand to miss a few meals so if it's between feeding my stomach or feeding my head...I'll feed my head. In the long run, I'll be better for it.
Allen Bussell
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11/19/2007 - 10:59 AM
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Hertfordshire, UK.
335 posts
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I just want to make a couple of points before I leave this issue alone.
Firstly, my comments were in no way a criticism on the quality of the modo in Focus material. I have purchased Andy's material previously from Luxology and always found them of the highest quality...always clear, concise and just enjoyable to watch, and I have no doubt these follow in the same vein.
In brief - I did have issues with Modo 102 - 203 so obviously all I needed to do was test 301 to find if there are any of the same issues...some issues cost me some very late nights away from the family and in one case a great deal more than $25 or the time spent moaning on here ;0)
I do have a great fondness that has built up over the years, for modo and the resources that Luxology provide. Only the guys at Luxology will know if this is a good idea in the long run, but I still have personal doubts that considering the market place and competition full of free demos that a new user will fork out any amount of money to test. Saying that, I can certainly see the benefits behind the idea and that it is money well spent (knowing Andy's work) for a new user to get up to speed during the evaluation period.
Enough from me...but suffice to say, even though there are and were some strong feelings in this post, we were all courteous and allowed to say what we believed...which I think says a lot of great things about the people involved in the community and Luxology.
--------------------------------------------------------
A life?! Cool! Where can I download one of those?
--------------------------------------------------------
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11/19/2007 - 11:02 AM
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Auckland NZ
1377 posts
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Quote from robscott :
Well hell, if $25.00 is nothing to you, and christmas is just around the corner you can buy me a full blown copy of modo and the training materal. Why your at it start a collection and throw in a new highend computer while your at it (I don't want to get caught short on the rendering time). ;)
Now your just trying to take advantage of kindness, he very well may have payed your 25 had you not done that.
Hell, the margaritas we had at Bostons were 12.50 each.
I originally had mixed thoughts about the payed eval as well, but until Brads done with his test theres not a lot of point in speculating. He knows more about his customer base than we do.
In the end 25 dollars isnt much, it all just depends on what you value. Its just like the people bashing MMORPG players simply because they don't value spending their time on it (and I agree but its no reason to bash).
A lady I work with hasnt had her drivers side front window for 3 years because she cant justify spending the 200 to replace it. Yet she is a smoker... so its all a matter of perspective.
That may be something for Luxology to consider... how to correctly convey the value gained by paying 25 bucks for the payed eval. Cmon Bob, do your marketing thing :P
CEH
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11/19/2007 - 11:32 AM
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Chicago, Illinois
358 posts
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I can't stand this anymore. You are NOT paying $25 for an eval copy of modo. You are paying (if you choose, no guns to the head) for $25 worth of "Intro to Modo" training videos. The FREE 301 eval (with bonus content) is included and if you act now, you can get it before it is released to the general public for FREE (without the training videos or bonus content). If you don't feel you need or want (or can afford) the extra training videos, then just be a little more patient and the FREE 301 eval will be available soon.
Seriously, I can't understand what all the fuss is about. The only legitimate complaint I have read, is that the free 301 eval is not available yet (currently the only way to get it is bundled with the new "In Focus" training kit. But Brad has stated repeatedly that it WILL be available, but they are trying to reduce the stress on their servers and give a little bonus to those who want to pay for Andy's training kit right away. What is wrong with that? Be patient.
This is no different than the "Intro to 3D" book that Autodesk publishes and sells for $40 and includes a copy of the Maya PLE on disc (the PLE is not $40, the book and training are - the PLE is just a bonus). Of course, if you don't want the training, then you can download the PLE for free. It should be noted that the latest version of Maya (2008) is STILL NOT available yet as a PLE just like XSI and ZBrush only recently released the evals of their most recent versions. (Don't even get me started on how most of these evals are mostly useless anyway).
I hope the same people that are so loud here (you know who you are) are just as vocal on those boards complaining about how long it has taken them to release free stuff to the community. And if you have complained (which you haven't), I guarantee you have not received a reply from the president of the company.
I can't believe how far above and beyond the competition Luxology routinely goes, and seemingly without much appreciation. It is still not enough for some people. Give someone an inch and they want a mile. If you are getting so much better service from Maxon, Autodesk or whovever, then go do your business with them. Please. People who gripe about not getting free stuff fast enough are not customers anyway. They are simply a distraction to Brad and Co. and are keeping them from working on updates and improvements to the software some of us have already paid for.
You have no idea how long I have held that in : )
Message edited by Chris_Morris on 11/19/2007 - 12:52 PM
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11/19/2007 - 12:50 PM
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South Florida
395 posts
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Took the words right out of my mouth, Chris.
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11/19/2007 - 1:08 PM
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Seattle, WA.
518 posts
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Sure, I am happy to comment. The modo in Focus videos are specifically designed to convey what modo is, what the key workflows in the software are. Sometimes is not easy for people to grok what a new piece of software is, and we think it is valuable to have Andy deliver his overview of the whole product in an approachable way. The value (if we succeeded in the videos) for people evaluating modo is in understanding if modo is "right" for you and making an informed decision as to whether it will fit into how you work. And the value for those who already have modo is in stepping back and looking at the totality of modo and possibly discovering a new aspect of the software that helps you get more out of modo. To use an analogy, the video series is a look at the forest, not an examination of a particular tree in the forest or a single path through the forest. It was not an easy set of videos to make. Andy made and re-made the videos until he had something that quickly got at the heart of modo, but without bogging down in the details as is so very easy to do.
The idea for these videos came directly from reading thousands of comments from the survey filled out (thanks to all who did) in the modo 201/202/203 evaluation cycle. Many of these comments said something like "I felt a bit lost in the evaluation process, as if I was was surrounded by what appear to be great building blocks but without any guide/recipe as to what all of this stuff was for." We are thus very interested as to comments on the videos - to see of they do help people to "get it" - whether that leads them to a "yes" or "no" on a subsequent purchase or a "I never knew the Shader Tree could be used that way" kind of thing.
It is clear that a good many people think that bundling this set of videos with the evaluation software and charging for it is a flawed idea. Perhaps it is, I am open to that. I am a little taken aback at the ferocity of some of the comments here and elsewhere. And too, there is a lot of good thinking in many of these posts too - thank you for the ideas. Once we can assess the full picture, we will adjust and move on.
edit: spelling correxions
Message edited by Bob Bennett on 11/19/2007 - 3:31 PM
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11/19/2007 - 1:33 PM
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Auckland NZ
1377 posts
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Benn,
you misspelled "of" (aspect fo the) and "a" or "any" (without an guide/recipe) as well but who's counting :P we all make typos. Ill get some opinions to you about the videos whenever I can get around to them :D
LeonArtO3D,
Damnit you, I was all happy until I saw another Chris posted right after me, shakes first at Chris M >:] oh well... we are both in agreement so Ill assume you were talking to us both.
I'm thinking about changing my name to something else, the real name thing works well aside from all the common names. Its like in school when a teacher says Chris and 4 people look up :P
CEH
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11/19/2007 - 2:34 PM
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Seattle, WA
201 posts
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When I downloaded the demo version of 101 a few years ago, I would have gladly paid twenty-five dollars for a video tutorial and probably would have purchased the software sooner because of it. It's what MBA types used to refer to as a win-win. It is in Luxology's best interest to help potential users understand Modo's workflow quickly with a minimum of frustration. It should also be very important to anyone with a genuine interest in determining whether Modo is the right tool for them and there are already many free videos available to help them get to that point.
My take on the whole thing is that Luxology is committed to having high quality training materials available at very reasonable prices and that this particular series even includes a free, fully functional copy of the software. Perhaps a less functional version should be available as a free download but, if it were me, I'd pay for the training.
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11/19/2007 - 3:32 PM
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Japan
324 posts
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Thanks for the videos, Brad:)
Just the kind of stuff I need.
Yes, you guys should stay focused on 302. But as it was mentioned in this thread, please make it the "Updater" kind of file. Downloading 400Mb again and again is not fun.
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11/19/2007 - 4:40 PM
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Birmingham, England
7 posts
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Well, I came to the forum to post a supportive message for Brad and the Lux team after listening to the PodCast... and now, one hour later... I'm exhausted!
My 2p on the various issues...
Surprised that registered *owners* can't get at eval for free but like Greg, I hadn't even thought of that idea until I read it here
I paid the $25 for the training alone. I got so much from the "ramp up" for the Shoe series that I knew the intro training would do me good.
I can see how the principle alone would be enough to cause a very hostile reaction but at some point, speaking from past experience, it's important to weigh up the situation without emotion. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face as it were. If the upgrade could stand to save me more than the upgrade price in increased productivity, I wouldn't balk at a $25 fee to get at the eval early.
Having said that, whilst I totally accept Lux is a business, I do worry sometimes that too much emphasis is being put on money-making ideas and that at some point I'm going to be priced out of the club.
I am a hobbyist user and I love Modo (it's really helped me to get a handle on 3d modelling - at long last) - and the community - even though I might only use the product on average for a few hours once or twice a month.
For my part, I treated the 20x->30x upgrade as a maintenance fee. Having recently RELUCTANTLY paid AutoDesk £345 just so I wouldn't miss out on "official" vista support in Max v10 and the inevitable *patches*, I think the upgrade price for Modo is great value by comparison. I have no intention of paying AutoDesk any more money but I have every intention of supporting Modo in years to come - as long as they keep up the great work and don't get too greedy :P
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11/19/2007 - 5:57 PM
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South Florida
395 posts
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Chris Hayes: LOL...er...you mis-spelled fist, as in 'shook my first at', or did I not get it? You 'shook your first' what at Chris M? LOL
That's alright, next week, when I finally get 301, I'll do something about changin' my avatar. At first, old uncle E=mc2 seemed kind of cool. Now, it's like a joke told too many times.
If you change your username, you'll need to tell everyone in the first 100 posts till all us slow learners get it. LOL
My sister insists I tell one on muself... Couple of months back I asked her about all these references to Lolita in the posts all over the net. She explained that LOL means "laugh out loud". LOL
Anyway it's pleasant to bring a few smiles back to this rather grim place of late.
Best of all things to you all!
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11/19/2007 - 6:17 PM
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Macau, SAR
2646 posts
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Life can be so easy. But unfortunately we are the only one complicating it. Nothing more, nothing less.
http://www.mduque.com - My Avatar equals my wip.
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11/19/2007 - 7:37 PM
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South Florida
395 posts
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Question for anyone in the know:
Let's say tomorrow the free eval, minus the $25 tutorials, is available to registered users, and I Bit Torrent it. Then, in 7 days, when I get paid, can I then just download the license?
Notice the wishful thinking?
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11/19/2007 - 9:23 PM
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307 posts
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Quote from Chris_Morris :
This is no different than the "Intro to 3D" book that Autodesk publishes and sells for $40 and includes a copy of the Maya PLE on disc (the PLE is not $40, the book and training are - the PLE is just a bonus). Of course, if you don't want the training, then you can download the PLE for free. It should be noted that the latest version of Maya (2008) is STILL NOT available yet as a PLE just like XSI and ZBrush only recently released the evals of their most recent versions. (Don't even get me started on how most of these evals are mostly useless anyway).
You've hit the nail on the head. Autodesk gives its customers a choice of buying the book or downloading the PLE verison. ALso you've failed to mention the fact that the Maya PLE has no time lock on it. The person can spend $40.00 and spend forever learning Maya PLE. You can't do that with Luxology's lame 30-day eval of modo. That is the difference between a good marketing campaign and a bad one.
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11/20/2007 - 7:21 AM
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241 posts
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LeonArtO3D: That's how it worked for 203, though I notice Brad says some previous versions had incomplete support materials in the eval.
Although the files were available on bittorrent for the 203 eval (as an alternative to direct download for the application, as the only method for the videos) I don't recall the number of seeds being very large so I would imagine a fair bit of the bandwidth still came from the Luxology servers - just not as much as if they'd been doing the whole job via direct download.
Message edited by Richard Haseltine on 11/20/2007 - 7:22 AM
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11/20/2007 - 7:21 AM
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Chicago, Illinois
358 posts
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Quote from robscott :
You've hit the nail on the head. Autodesk gives its customers a choice of buying the book or downloading the PLE verison. ALso you've failed to mention the fact that the Maya PLE has no time lock on it. The person can spend $40.00 and spend forever learning Maya PLE. You can't do that with Luxology's lame 30-day eval of modo. That is the difference between a good marketing campaign and a bad one.
You are right. And Brad has said that a free download of just the modo eval will also be available soon for those that don't want to pay for the training. The same goes is you want the latest version of Maya as a PLE. It is also not yet alvailable. You have to be patient (both Lux and Autodesk feel the priority goes to paying customers first).
As far as the eval goes, Lux and Autodesk take two different approaches. For the Maya PLE you get a disabled version of the product (watemarks, lowres renders, no high end tools, no file compatibility, no import/export, no plugins, etc.) but with no time lock. Luxology gives you a full featured program with nothing disabled and even permission to do use it for commercial work. You just only get a 30 day license for free. I don't consider that lame, it is just a different philosophy. I think there are strengths to both models. I hobbyist who just wants free software to play around with will be very happy with the Maya PLE. That is it's purpose. A personal learning edition. The modo eval is just that, an evaluation. It is meant to give you a chance to put the program through it's paces and see if it is worth your dollars. Unlike every other eval demo I am aware of, it is the only one with no limitiations for that 30 day eval period. And the $25 "Focus" training kit is designed to get you up to speed faster so you can get more out of your eval period.
I suppose it is a matter of what you want out of a demo. Just looking for free software? Go with the PLE. Looking to evaluate what modo can really do so you can make an informed purchase? Get the the modo eval (with trainging or without). Looking for free download of modo so you can use an illegal crack on it and not have to pay a dime (which is what I suspect is the major complaint of those whining about the $25 kit)? Then go somewhere else.
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11/20/2007 - 7:45 AM
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Santa Cruz, CA
594 posts
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Quote from robscott :
ALso you've failed to mention the fact that the Maya PLE has no time lock on it. The person can spend $40.00 and spend forever learning Maya PLE. You can't do that with Luxology's lame 30-day eval of modo. That is the difference between a good marketing campaign and a bad one.
Right but the Maya PLE demo sucks. The shaders are completely incompatible with anything else out there, the file format can't be read by anything else (and no export), and last time I checked the renders were all watermarked. This means that ANY work you do on it is completely wasted and has to be redone from scratch if you decide to purchase the app. I'm sure studios love having their talent do things twice... (actually most studios probably know if they want Maya or not) and frankly I'm sure most freelance/hobbyists/students aren't thrilled about having to recreate work from scratch.
------------------------------------------
* We dance where angels fear to tread *
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11/20/2007 - 7:46 AM
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307 posts
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Quote from Chris_Morris :
You are right. And Brad has said that a free download of just the modo eval will also be available soon for those that don't want to pay for the training. The same goes is you want the latest version of Maya as a PLE. It is also not yet alvailable. You have to be patient (both Lux and Autodesk feel the priority goes to paying customers first).
As far as the eval goes, Lux and Autodesk take two different approaches. For the Maya PLE you get a disabled version of the product (watemarks, lowres renders, no high end tools, no file compatibility, no import/export, no plugins, etc.) but with no time lock. Luxology gives you a full featured program with nothing disabled and even permission to do use it for commercial work. You just only get a 30 day license for free. I don't consider that lame, it is just a different philosophy. I think there are strengths to both models. I hobbyist who just wants free software to play around with will be very happy with the Maya PLE. That is it's purpose. A personal learning edition. The modo eval is just that, an evaluation. It is meant to give you a chance to put the program through it's paces and see if it is worth your dollars. Unlike every other eval demo I am aware of, it is the only one with no limitiations for that 30 day eval period. And the $25 "Focus" training kit is designed to get you up to speed faster so you can get more out of your eval period.
I suppose it is a matter of what you want out of a demo. Just looking for free software? Go with the PLE. Looking to evaluate what modo can really do so you can make an informed purchase? Get the the modo eval (with trainging or without). Looking for free download of modo so you can use an illegal crack on it and not have to pay a dime (which is what I suspect is the major complaint of those whining about the $25 kit)? Then go somewhere else.
I've never said the 30-day eval without the training material was lame. I've always said the $25.00/30-day eval is lame. I've always said the deal should be $25.00 with a 90-to-120 day eval. You need to use some commonsense when accusing people of cracking software.
If I'm cracking the software, why would I complain about the current deal. Think about this for a moment- $25.00 to save me $870.00 thats a pretty good deal if you can crack the software, so why would I complain?
You guys really do need to think before you accuse someone of cracking software.
Message edited by robscott on 11/20/2007 - 7:57 AM
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11/20/2007 - 7:56 AM
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Chicago, Illinois
358 posts
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Quote from robscott :
I've never said the 30-day eval without the training material was lame.
Quote from robscott :
You can't do that with Luxology's lame 30-day eval of modo.
Sorry if I misunderstood.
As far as the accusation, relax. I wasn't referring to you at all. No offense intended. I know that there are a lot of great people on this forum who are just expressing their opinion, but's let all be honest, okay. We know what this industry is like and the kind of people that are out there. We know that piracy is rampant. Lux has said that their servers get jammed with downloads of modo linked directly from cracking sites. They know their own generosity hurts them. Their un-disabled eval gives priates a great, full copy of modo right from the source. All you need is the crack. There have been people on this forum who have admitted (even boasted) of using it. Lux gets a very low return on purchases based on the number of evals downloaded and there are a number of very vocal complainers on this forum who have been using modo for well over 30 days and yet have never purchased it. So I am not pulling accusation out of thin air. It exists. Maybe it is not you or me, but they are among us and they know who they are.
Quote from robscott :
I've always said the $25.00/30-day eval is lame.
I'm only going to say this one more time. There is no $25 eval. There is a $25 video training kit that includes a free 30 day eval. Just like Autodesk has a $40 book and a $80 DVD with introductory training lessons and a free PLE. If you want only the free 301 eval (or the Maya 2008 PLE) you will have to wait a little longer (for both). Why is this so hard?
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11/20/2007 - 8:24 AM
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Auckland NZ
1377 posts
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Quote from LeonArtO3D :
Chris Hayes: LOL...er...you mis-spelled fist, as in 'shook my first at', or did I not get it? You 'shook your first' what at Chris M? LOL
Oh wouldn't you like to know, just don't make me shake my second at him too! Mr. Muself :P
I was just saying its not a big deal, If I was buying literature, typos would be a big deal but posts on forums? Psh
If you change your username, you'll need to tell everyone in the first 100 posts till all us slow learners get it. LOL
I was actually thinking of changing it to C.E.Hayes and leaving the avatar the same that way it wouldn't confuse.
My sister insists I tell one on muself... Couple of months back I asked her about all these references to Lolita in the posts all over the net. She explained that LOL means "laugh out loud". LOL
Oh I'm laughing alright ;)
CEH
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11/20/2007 - 9:55 AM
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Chicago
421 posts
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Wow the wife goes away for the week-end and Chris tells them like it is.
Just remember It Thanksgiving in the U.S.A people! That we can work an play, that we are alive and free, that there are jobs that we can be creative, is alot to be Thankful to God for. We should all be happy. Lets look at the bigger picture, there are a lot of people that don't have the things we have in this world and they seem to be happier with much less. Thanks God for the little things as well as the big things.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Bruce Long
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11/20/2007 - 10:11 AM
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