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Topic - (11-16-2007) Quick! Look over here!!!
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Virginia, USA
2038 posts
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Lastly, I can't think of another company I've dealt with that has been so "connected" to its users... the presence in the forums, weekly updates and podcasts, videos and LuxTV... and they can call it free and you can argue it's not... but in the end, it's really about staying connected to the users and trying to please them as much as possible. And that's why I like them. So there. :P
Yes, I agree. Wholeheartedly. However, these free things seem to be used to keep complainers silent more than anything else. Someone grumbles about something and Luxology plays the "Free Trump Card" on 'em. That just plain feels wrong.
www.hypergraphstudios.com
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11/17/2007 - 12:18 PM
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Mission Viejo Ca
352 posts
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Quote from dmg3d :
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The only thing I would change is:
1) Anyone who has a previous version of modo should have access to the demo in their account for an upgrade evaluation.
2) The $25 should go towards the purchase of modo, since the eval pack is being offered by Luxology, it's really a marketing tool. If an "In Focus" video were offered by Dan Ablan, that would be different.
Those 2 are very good suggestions and are right in line on how Lux treats their customers. The video's get refunded when you purchase as a thanks for tryng and buying bonus.
--- Bob Lackey , CA
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11/17/2007 - 12:24 PM
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Vancouver
161 posts
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I personally don't see anything wrong with an individual or company pointing out what they have done which is well beyond industry norm....such as the free stuff Lux has provided.
I'm sure these free things were never created, in the first place, as future 'silencer' material in case they were needed to be used.
As a business, (they need to make a living), I tend to trust their motives.
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11/17/2007 - 12:29 PM
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Hawaii
184 posts
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Since I pre-orderd & now own 301 this debate is a little removed from me.
But Lux could offer a free demo version without any ability to save anything but that also had no time limit. That way if someone wanted to leisurely test drive without paying they could. It won't solve the bandwidth issue. But if the code to save or export doesn't exist in that free version it wouldn't be very attractive to pirates.
I wish they had implemented a sliding pricing scale.
Potential customers $25 with demo included
Modo 101 owners $20 with demo included
Modo 201 owners $15 with demo included
Modo 301 owners $10 demo would be superfluous.
This basically sends the message that loyal customers are treated specially. That's a good message.
I wanted to add that Andy Brown is a fabulous trainer. His videos are well edited so the viewer doesn't have to sit through any fluff. I'm not sure I'd want to sit through this particular 2.5 hours of basics (which I probably already know) just for a tidbit of wisdom - but that's my call. I prefer the project based tutorials.
Anyway, thanks for listening to my thoughts on the subject...
Modo makes modeling fun.
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11/17/2007 - 12:51 PM
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Virginia, USA
2038 posts
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I personally don't see anything wrong with an individual or company pointing out what they have done which is well beyond industry norm....such as the free stuff Lux has provided.
Yes, why not. However, I was never denying this in my posts.
I'm sure these free things were never created, in the first place, as future 'silencer' material in case they were needed to be used.
I would agree that this is the case (contrary to the silly boardroom scenario I used in a previous post). However, this seems to be how it is being used. I do believe that Luxology added new features in point updates as a means of pleasing current customers and to draw in those that had not yet made a purchasing decision. Even so, the "free" mantra seems to be used from time to time to silence people who complain as if to say, "Stop your whining and look at all the free goodies we have given you!" But free goodies do not make up for poor marketing decisions, an unstable program, bugs that have the potential to cripple you while working and a config system that corrupts modo making it unable to start without deleting the config file (etc).
www.hypergraphstudios.com
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11/17/2007 - 1:07 PM
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Milwaukee
720 posts
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Quote from Dan_Silverman :
I do believe that Luxology added new features in point updates as a means of pleasing current customers and to draw in those that had not yet made a purchasing decision.
I think that's a fine line that every company walks. Fixing things vs. adding things. If you keep fixing things to have a rock solid app without adding anything new, people will complain you're not moving forward. If you keep adding new things, but leave features buggy or broken, people complain about stability (Newtek falls into this one for me).
Dave
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11/17/2007 - 1:49 PM
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Norway
980 posts
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I am working with a company right now that is in ´autodesk hell´.That is to say, they are trapped in the never ending upgrade cycle that costs them an absolute fortune every time autodesk need to feed their board members.Needless to say they are looking for an alternative software package that doesn´t cost them an arm and a leg.
I can´t understand that a 25$ fee is causing this much debate! Maybe if Lux sold to autodesk everybody would get a bit of perspective.
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11/17/2007 - 2:03 PM
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San Mateo
1875 posts
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Trying to enjoy the weekend with the family so I haven't read this entire thread. However, despite the fact that I stand behind the modo in Focus series bundle this is clearly rubbing some people the wrong way. While raking leaves I had some ideas. I'll talk it over with the staff on Monday and maybe have some new ideas for everyone early next week.
Now, let's change focus to things that matter such as those two cool new videos I posted! ;)
BP
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11/17/2007 - 2:25 PM
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New York
2030 posts
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Brad,
Thanks for the Videos, it really solved one of the great mystery for me. Now I understand how it correlates to polygons. Can you explain a little bit how it effects having Displacement Maps? or is there a video already I missed.
Thank you so much for providing these videos for us, they make tremendous difference in the learning processes.
....Encouragement gets me going....
Criticism, corrects and gets me going.....
Message edited by Sha Ali on 11/17/2007 - 2:46 PM
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11/17/2007 - 2:46 PM
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Charlotte, NC
1656 posts
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I'm definitely looking forward to the coming parts of this series. I appreciate that you do these things and go into the kinds of depths you do regarding them, in more layman type language.
Curt
When you're through learning, you're through.
http://www.curtthurston.com
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11/17/2007 - 3:31 PM
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Netherlands
3544 posts
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yes i just watched them, great video's,
thanks Brad!
Greetings!
Corien Klapwijk
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11/17/2007 - 5:05 PM
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Charlotte, NC
1656 posts
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Okay, this is my last post on this thread but I really felt the need to make this last post. There has been much discussion over the Eval/Training bundle and almost nothing mentioned about the training itself that is bundled with the evaluation version, . that is causing all the controversy in the first place.
I've been a registered modo user since version 102. I'm essentially a product illustrator. I don't do creatures, I don't do a lot of animation (no character animation at all). I bought the eval/training bundle even though I already have (purchased) 301. Pre-ordered it even. So why would I buy the eval version? I bought it for the training because I have very little experience with sculpting and painting in modo. I bought it solely based on the premiss that if I could learn anything about sculpting or painting it would be worth $25 to me. I won't go into my billing guidelines but $25 represents less than a half hour of my billable time so it seemed like a reasonable financial risk to me. A negligible one really (for me).
I have watched all the videos. In that I have been using modo as long as I have I will confess that I didn't really learn anything that I didn't know before from the first two videos. I didn't think I would learn anything new from the third one (modeling). I was wrong. I did know already a good deal of the material but learned a few things I didn't know. Small things, but they all count (to me).
I didn't expect to learn a lot in the forth one either for that matter (UV). What I didn't know is almost laughable to me now. I'm too embarrassed to mention the things that I did learn because I suppose they should seem obvious. I'll spare everyone the arduos breakdown of my learning experiance because in retrospect it seems like it would only serve to illustrate how inept I must have been.
My opinion has always been that you can't know it all. My goal has been to try and learn at least one new thing about modo everyday no matter how seemingly small. I have learned an enormous amount today!
My evaluation and report on the training included with the evaluation copy is this. In my opinion, a reasonably intelligent person, with no prior experience with modo should be able to sit down with the training provided in the "modo in Focus" training series and within a relatively short amount of time (a day or two) be able to create content in modo. From model to render (including animation). Less time than that if you have any working knowledge of 3D applications and less even than that if you have any prior experience in modo.
Unless you are already extremely familiar with all aspects of modo, you will learn something from this training regardless of how long you've been using modo. It does not go into advanced depths of the areas it covers but will get you working in all of them.
Andy did a killer job.
Curt
Edit Before anyone chimes in about how I'm missing the point, understand that the point of this post is simply to comment on the training, not the whole eval/training bundle release prior to the free demo release saga. I've already commented on that.
When you're through learning, you're through.
http://www.curtthurston.com
Message edited by Curt Thurston on 11/17/2007 - 6:32 PM
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11/17/2007 - 6:22 PM
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Orlando, FL
552 posts
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I think the focus program is a great idea Brad. The only flaw I see is with the existing 10x 20x customers.
I for one pre-ordered 301 and will still buy these videos just for the fact that I always learn something new from Andy.
You can’t always make everybody happy, do what is best for the growth of Luxology.
-Tim
modoArchiver coming soon...
------------------------------------
www.cgmstudios.com
www.twitter.com/concussiongfx
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11/17/2007 - 9:36 PM
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Santa clarita
59 posts
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DEMOS... so far any software that i had bought, had some demo software and you guys where the only ones that had a longer then 30 day trial with 101. if wasn't for that i would never made the move
Message edited by kalilifestyle on 11/17/2007 - 9:55 PM
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11/17/2007 - 9:52 PM
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New Zealand
111 posts
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I really enjoyed the videos.
Is the continuation coming next week ? Video 2 ended by saying "Next we are going to be talking more about subdivisions and also start getting into micro-poly tesselation which of course is used for displacement rendering"
Sammy!!
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11/17/2007 - 10:44 PM
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South Africa
1376 posts
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Quote from Dan_Silverman :
I do believe that Luxology added new features in point updates as a means of pleasing current customers and to draw in those that had not yet made a purchasing decision.
I think it makes perfect sense that Lux has used new releases of point updates as a marketing opportunity, a chance to get modo onto center stage via press releases etc.
Obviously this requires that there are cool new features to talk about, such as the new UV tools we saw in a previous point release. You're not going to see an article in 3Dworld announcing an exciting new release of modo featuring "a fix to the annoying thing where modo regularly pukes into its config file and corrupts it". While it would make a lot of existing users very happy, it's not ideal marketing material.
Like everyone here, I really appreciate all the free stuff but I agree with Dan that there's a suggestion that by accepting the free gifts we forfeit any right to be dissatisfied about things which are unrelated. "don't whine about stability, be happy, you have luxology.tv now, and modcasts".
Message edited by grantm on 11/17/2007 - 11:55 PM
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11/17/2007 - 11:26 PM
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Montreal, Canada
80 posts
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Great modcast (as usual) Brad.
My vote: Don't change a thing (policy).
I'M HAPPY! YAY!
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11/18/2007 - 5:56 AM
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307 posts
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Quote from Greg Leuenberger :
For the guys who are upset you can just wait it out. If it's a horrible mistake and effects sales negatively then that will show up quite clearly in Luxology's database within a month or so. If it turns out to be a good business decision then you cannot blame them for continuing along these lines. I run a business and often give services out for free (I used to do a lot of encoding/file conversions for free - it was a favor and I thought the 'good will' paid for my time). I now charge for that - and it's worked out a lot better that way.
Anyway, I certainly understand waiting around for something you're excited about and then seeing the $25 fee it could be quite a buzzkill for some people (while other people were undoubtably excited about the training). And the 'previous owner' arguement is valid - although that's something I would have overlooked.
Anyway, good luck.
-G
The question Luxology should ask is, if within a month or two it turns out to be a bad idea, will people come back when there is a free eval? The difference between you converstions for free is that you had the customers from the start. The whole point of the eval is to get people interested in modo, who might not look at modo if they had to pay $25 for a 30-day eval.
I said this in the other thread, I'll say it here, the $25 eval should be a 90-day eval.
The question I have for you Greg and the others that are for the $25 eval is this: Luxology states in the PR release that the $25's is to cover the cost of Andy Browns training material; but when Brad post his replies here he does nothing but talk about the production cost of the modocast and all the other (supposedly free) perks that Luxology has for the community (if the production cost of the perks is being pushed onto one segment of the customer base, then the perks can't be called free because someone is paying beside luxology).
There are several different signals here. Is it about production cost of the perks? Is it about the cost of the extra training material? Is $25 cost designed to get rid of non-serious customers? Because of the different signals from Lux I think that is why there is more negitivity about this.
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11/18/2007 - 7:35 AM
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Mission Viejo Ca
352 posts
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The adaptive subdivision tips are brilliant! Wow thats the kind of tuning render time info I could use a lot more of.
More render info videos, heck do a whole tutorial series on rendering settings I'm betting that would be an all time favorite.
--- Bob Lackey , CA
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11/18/2007 - 8:43 AM
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Milwaukee
720 posts
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Quote from Orrey :
The adaptive subdivision tips are brilliant! Wow thats the kind of tuning render time info I could use a lot more of.
More render info videos, heck do a whole tutorial series on rendering settings I'm betting that would be an all time favorite.
Man, I totally agree. Great videos Brad. Without these quick little How-To's, I would've just been resigned to the fact that a) my objects were just huge and b) my huge objects generated longer render times... rather than digging around for ways to reduce either.
Thanks
Dave
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11/18/2007 - 9:39 AM
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Vancouver, BC
311 posts
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About 10 years ago, I decided to check out Autodessys FormZ. They had an evaluation copy available that ran for 45 days, came with printed manuals and a dongle. It cost $275.00 USD at the time. With the CDN exchange rate then it actually cost me $475.00. If I decided to buy a permanent license, then my $275.00 was applied to my purchase price of $3000.00. So, after doing the tutorials, playing with the projects etc... I decided that this wasn't the app for me. That and I could use an associates copy - on his machine.
So the $25.00 for me is nothing.
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11/18/2007 - 11:59 AM
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Sunnyvale, CA
2121 posts
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Well, I don't know that I'm particularly 'for' it. I'm basically for whatever is good for the company - because that will translate into a better Modo for us. I have no idea if this is a good move or not - I don't have the data (my gut feeling was 'bad move'). My guess is it was worth the risk for them to find out - and if it is a good move I would expect to see the $25 demo offer to continue.
Anyway - as far as training there is no way they could give away that amount of training. It costs a lot to make training like that. They brought Andy on staff in order to get training of that quality - and that's a big expense. So the bundle makes sense from that standpoint.
The fact is if the 'free demo'->'paying customer' ratio is low and bandwidth and support costs exceed it - then it's probably bad business.
The main gripe I see is a 103/203 customer who's had mixed experience with their hardware and wants some peace of mind before they upgrade. I totally understand that. I also understand the disappointment of being excited to see a 301 released only to have a $25 buzzkill (it's not THAT much - but people have a hard time justifying certain things. I drop that on food/drinks all the time - but I have a hard time buying a hardback book..)
Anyway, time will tell. They have to do what's best for their business and families and if this is what's best then so be it (plus they've done a lot of research into all of this and we're all just speculating). If it's not I suspect we'll see a change in policy.
:)
-Greg
Quote from robscott :
The question I have for you Greg and the others that are for the $25 eval is this: Luxology states in the PR release that the $25's is to cover the cost of Andy Browns training material; but when Brad post his replies here he does nothing but talk about the production cost of the modocast and all the other (supposedly free) perks that Luxology has for the community (if the production cost of the perks is being pushed onto one segment of the customer base, then the perks can't be called free because someone is paying beside luxology).
HR]
Message edited by Greg Leuenberger on 11/18/2007 - 12:43 PM
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11/18/2007 - 12:38 PM
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Chester, England
458 posts
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Quote from Dan_Silverman :
I would agree that this is the case (contrary to the silly boardroom scenario I used in a previous post). However, this seems to be how it is being used. I do believe that Luxology added new features in point updates as a means of pleasing current customers and to draw in those that had not yet made a purchasing decision. Even so, the "free" mantra seems to be used from time to time to silence people who complain as if to say, "Stop your whining and look at all the free goodies we have given you!" But free goodies do not make up for poor marketing decisions, an unstable program, bugs that have the potential to cripple you while working and a config system that corrupts modo making it unable to start without deleting the config file (etc).
These last points are the absolute core of the matter. Charging $25 for an eval version with training is almost inconsequential next to these facts.
I love what Modo does, but it's undeniably unstable; releasing 301 in it's original state pretty much trashed my trust and confidence in Lux.....and lost them the sale of a second license to my company. That's not a permanent situation hopefully, and trust can be won back, but not, in my books, by hype and bragging. 301 came perilously close to a software-release version of 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.....but bizarrely it was not a failure of the software, but a marketing failure. All Lux had to do was stand-up and say that it wasn't ready on time, but that they were thinking of releasing it anyway.....then at least we would know and have the choice.
On principle and in keeping with most of the industry, the eval should be free - the training bundle should not. That training bundle is a good idea, $25 is a snip, and Andy Brown always has useful stuff to say and demo, even at the basic levels. Though I shall be interested to see what Brad's new ideas are.
Julian.
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11/18/2007 - 4:03 PM
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Macau, SAR
2354 posts
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Quote from BradPeebler :
Of course, I'd rather have my team focused on finishing and testing modo 302. ;) BP
I have already commented my opinion in the General Section about the $25. Conclusion, it is worth every penny when you take in consideration about the Tutorials that comes with it. There is no reason to complaint and plus, the constant FREE contents/tutorials that Lux has been provided to the community all these years. Actually, everyone can download it.
Maybe some people rather complain and moan at the pub holding a glass of Guinness when they charge 2.50 Pounds ($5.12 USD). At least that's what they used to charge at Lancaster, UK, when I used to work there as Webdesigner. And 5 minutes later, there I was at the bathroom again......... ppppppppssssssssssssssssssssss........ done, please another Guinness! Hummmm....
$5.12 USD (each glass of Guinness) x 5 (Glasses of Guinness) = $25.6 USD
Wait..... I heard Brad saying China.....
BRAD !!!
HEY, I'M IN CHINA (MACAU SAR - Besides, I'm Portuguese) !!!!!!!!!
YOU SOLD ONE IN CHINA FOR SURE (almost $1000, including UPS)!!!
TO ME !!!!!!!!!!!!
302 ??????????
Cool... Any dates to look forward?
http://www.mduque.com
"To lose ambition is to lose yourself."
Message edited by CGicore on 11/18/2007 - 11:26 PM
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11/18/2007 - 7:25 PM
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LA
874 posts
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Quote from robscott :
Now unless your servers clean the floors and wash the windows when they are not downloading; all they do when they are not download is eat electricity and sit there looking disinterested in you and everyone else at the company.
whats this talk about bandwidth cost?? isnt lux using bit torrent to deliver their software? thats a slap in the face of an excuse if you ask me (does lux think we are too stupid to know how bit torrents work???). give the man his test ride, he is a paying customer for christ sake. as far as piracy concerns, again he is a paying customer, who is pirating??
3D Generalist / VFX Supervisor | www.stooch.net
For every negative opinion, there are 10 more who wont say anything at all, N-FASE™
Message edited by Stooch on 11/18/2007 - 8:11 PM
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11/18/2007 - 8:09 PM
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